Democracy Café: August

August 2024

The well attended café took place a week or so after the riots erupted in Southport following the murder of three little girls and the attempted murder of eight others. This sparked off disturbances all around England with a massive police presence to try and keep control. Those events were the focus of the two topics we discussed.

The first was is multi-culturalism going to be possible in the UK? A feature of the riots was attacks on hotels housing refugees and asylum seekers and a rumour that the boy arrested for the murders was a Muslim and had arrived in the UK by boat, neither of which was true. Some were quick to point out that they were in fact more optimistic now especially following the turn out of large numbers of people to defend mosques and to protect their communities from violence generally. It was noted there was a long history of attacks on ‘other’ groups. The demonisation of vulnerable groups seen to be to blame for society’s shortfalls has a long history.

The debate turned to culture and it was noted the disturbances took place in England. It was suggested that this might be because the English are uncertain about their cultural identity. The other nations were much clearer on this point: the Scots, Welsh and Irish have a range of cultural memes with which to identify. Even Morris dancers were thought to be a bit of a ‘joke’ by some it was suggested.

“The English are uncertain of their cultural identity”

It was suggested that the recent disturbances have had a kind of benefit in bringing the ‘cancer’ of racism into the open. The seemingly respectable views of people like Nigel Farage were seen for what they were having only a veneer of respectability. Culture was also a shifting concept as times changed. It was noted for example that 60% of those born in London were the offspring of parents born outside the UK – a change in culture was inevitable therefore.

Several pointed out that there was a danger of seeing this as an exclusively English problem. Yugoslavia was a multi ethnic state then disintegrated into separate groups following the death of Marshal Tito. There were problems of this nature in Germany. It was noted that the many ethnic groups living in Southampton congregated in specific areas according to their origins.

The beliefs were quite strong and we heard an anecdote about a chance encounter in the street in Salisbury where a man, having recovered from a stumble, suddenly said ‘the country was too small’ in a discussion about the riots and ‘we cannot have any more coming in’. He was asked if he could trace his lineage back to 1066 whereupon he decided to leave (the conversation, not the country). David Olusoga’s comments on R4 saying that the riots and attacks were racist and were not an expression of legitimate concerns.

The role of politicians – in particular Conservative ones such as Suella Braverman, Priti Patel, Danny Kruger and Rishi Sunak – in stirring up popular resentment towards refugees and the boat people should not be forgotten. Their negative approach to asylum seekers was disgraceful someone thought and a reluctance to accept our obligations in this regard not acceptable. The idea that those in power needed to keep people divided was suggested as an underlying motivation. Was the social contract broken? There was hope the new government will be different. Immigration was always mentioned in terms of being a ‘problem’ and something to be minimised but Britain was an ageing population with a below replacement birth rate. We needed these people.

Britain had and ageing population and needed immigrants

The problem of the underperformance of white working class boys was introduced. They performed poorly in education terms and it was their resentments which might have been an element in recent events. Many of them thought it unmasculine to study for exams and this was a factor. Reports of several generations where no one has worked was mentioned. In the second discussion (below) but it is more relevant here, was the subject of agency. Many people lacked a sense of doing something worthwhile which was perhaps linked to the education point. Some of the mis- and disinformation which the social media people promoted depended on the notion that we know something you don’t. More critical thinking might be an answer to this.

Of course it was not all bad news and the performance of Team GB in the Olympics was mentioned as a positive. A local school, Manor Fields, was a good example of multi-culturism in action.

The second discussion was in a sense an extension of this topic and focused on social media in particular. A feature of the riots has been the role of X and Telegram in particular in spreading false stories about what happened in Southport. Elon Musk himself has also entered the fray with some inflammatory statements. The questions for debate were should media power be taken away from irresponsible people? and should [the government] be able to legally shut down websites?

We were reminded straight away that when the internet was introduced all those years ago, it was seen in positive terms and it enable information and news to be posted straight away and without the sanction or censorship of governments or press agencies. As time has gone by however that freedom has been eroded.

What is the primary purpose of internet companies? Answer: make money and to do that they had to keep you engaged. This was done by using algorithms to supply you with information related to your search interest. This process was the first step to radicalisation. The website Mastodon – which did not do this – was mentioned.

We were reminded that after the 2011 riots, there was concern then expressed by the role of the web but the government was reluctant to take action. Will it be the same this time?

The essential question was asked: why do people want to spread disinformation. What was their motivation? In relation to Elon Musk, his role of being both owner and contributor was seen as ‘crossing a line’ however, it should be noted that the press barons have been doing just that for some considerable time. Many advertisers stopped advertising on X in the light of some of the material finding its way onto it and a fall in revenue might affect its future commercial prospects.

A key point was the power of the written word: if people see something in print they give it great credence. A counter argument was the power of the spoken word as well and Hitler was mentioned who had honed his speaking abilities acting for a government agency and was able to move large audiences with his oratorical skill. It was pointed out that it was easier to promote disinformation via social media which could be done in an instant, whereas a book for example took a great deal of time and things like references had to be provided.

Someone thought that greater democratisation of the internet brought with it greater responsibility. It was a complex area and states wanted the companies to moderate their content and hence police them for not doing this adequately. It was also pointed out that ‘moderation’ went both ways: some companies were fixing algorithms to block out mentions of the conflict in Gaza – as well as child porn. The idea of unfettered access to events as they happened without the role of intermediaries and censorship was not being fulfilled.

The News Agents podcasts were mentioned positively (@thenewsagents) as well as Channel3News the latter which was claimed to have played a key role in the spread of disinformation. It was a convincing and professionally produced site.

It was not clear whether we were really tackling the question about banning these sites. We were reminded that attempts to ban people or ideas was not always successful or even wise. When the BBC invited Nick Griffin onto Question Time there was a huge furore and press anger. But, exposing his views to public view and criticism effectively ended his influence overnight.

Peter Curbishley

The next meeting is on 14 September.

Guardian piece about children being taught about social media