Salisbury Democracy Alliance

Category: Salisbury

  • Dissatisfaction with our politicians expressed at latest Democracy Café

    That and tax were the two topics discussed

    A recurring subject of our Cafés is the dissatisfaction both with our MPs and the political process generally. This is clearly becoming a matter of national concern with low voter turnout at elections, falling membership for the main parties and a rise of what were once called ‘fringe’ parties.

    The escape of various prisoners that week from Wandsworth Gaol was the focus of our first topic: not the escapes themselves but the unedifying debate which took place in parliament particularly at Prime Minister’s Questions. Two prisoners, Brahim Kaddour-Cherif and William Smith were released mistakenly and there ensued a major political row with the Conservatives blaming Labour and Labour blaming the Conservatives.

    The question which won the vote was How can we encourage more cooperative working [between the parties] in Parliament? The proposer was motivated to pose the question by the debates about relatively petty issues and insufficiently on the big ones. The slanging match which took place between the parties overlooked the years of underfunding of prisons which had taken place under both parties. Prisons were unpleasant places said someone who visits one regularly and they too little time was spent on things like behavioural change. No party was willing to tackle the system or the huge investment the estate needed.

    A lot of theatrics we saw was around PMQ and this often got televised. Many politicians were playing to the popular press. Would it not be an idea to stop televising parliament it was suggested? We did not pursue that thought and it would be a pity to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    Another thought was Eton. The school has a debating chamber modelled on the House of Commons and boys practice the skills (if skills they be) of debating. Since Eton has provided a preponderance of ex-pupils to become MPs and ministers including many prime ministers, could this be a contributory factor to the public school raucous style of debating?

    The need for a constitution was suggested. However, the US has a constitution and it hasn’t ruled out bad politics. Could not the Speaker control things better?

    It was noted however that the Select Committee system works well where party members do work together on them. This system has been a success especially after control of the selection of members was wrested from the whips. But how often do people follow select committee debates? People watch the spectacle of PMQs are less inclined to follow the dry stuff of a select committee even though it was often more consequential. As we have noted in these debates before, do we not get the politics we deserve?

    Back to PMQs. Was it not absurd that the prime minister was summoned each week to answer what can be trivial or detailed questions? The session was dominated by point-scoring and appealing to the gallery not discussing matters of strategic importance. Imagine for example if the boss of M&S was asked each week why one of their stores was out of a particular size of trousers say. Would you run a major corporation that way? Probably not.

    One of the shifts which has taken place in recent times is the way all parties now have focus groups and fashion their policies around what these and other sources of public opinion thinking. They were no longer leading but following. But what many are crying out for is leadership. The election this week of the charismatic Mayor of New York was mentioned. What we seem to be getting is followership.

    The quality of our MPs was mentioned. Do we need to know more about candidates? Should there not be some kind of minimum standard? What that would be and how it would be enforced was not discussed.

    An interesting point was that we elect our MPs but have no say over who gets into the Cabinet or goes onto the government payroll. Since it is the latter individuals who exercise the power it does seem anomalous that we spend all the time selecting someone to represent the constituency who then may well go onto become a minister of some kind. Rory Stewart discusses this in his book Politics on the Edge (Jonathan Cape, 2023) where no interest is taken by selection committees in someone’s policy making experience or management skills in the selection process. It suggests large numbers of people being elected with no regard at all for the skills they’ll need to run the country. And we wonder why we’re in a mess.

    Back to the public school system and whereas it was true that such schools provided a disproportionate number of MPs and hence ministers in the past, a Sutton Trust study in 2024 shows that just one member of the current cabinet had a private education. This contrasts with the last Conservative government where just 19% of ministers did not have a private education.

    Another feature of Stewart’s book was the practice of ignoring expert advice. There was a suggestion that there should be more in the way of expert input into decision making. One said their experience of meeting civil servants to convey expertise or knowledge was met by the response ‘this is what the minister wants’ with little or no interest in whether it was practical or workable. Another said there was no shortage of reports, McPherson and Louise Casey into the Met for example. Most ended up ignored. The problem was a ‘we know best’ attitude not a lack of informed input.

    Was our government a product of the class system? Perhaps we should debate this as a topic all of itself in the future. As noted, the role of public schools has lessened in recent years.

    We digressed somewhat to talk about the removal of power and money from local authorities.

    As a kind of summing up it was thought that manifestos should be more visionary and not the product of pandering to the lowest common denominator. The lack of interest in the political process was also noted and we will not get improvement or change unless the public presses for it.

    On to our second topic which was Should the wealthy pay more tax? It is only about 2 weeks until the Budget around which there is already considerable debate. The Chancellor gave a speech a week or so ago which was widely seen as a hint that there will be an increase in income tax. The immediate answer the proposer noted was to say ‘yes’ but in fact the system already enabled sufficient tax to be collected the problem was all the loopholes. [Official statistics show it stands at 5.3% of theoretical liabilities i.e. £46.8bn (2023- 24 tax year). Experts say this figure is an order of magnitude too low].

    The major problem with the system was it was concentrated on earnings not on wealth. Considerable wealth was in the possession of those who paid little in the way of tax on that wealth. Land for example was not taxed (but rents would be). However, it was noted those who owned property did pay tax on any rents. Major estates could gain exemption from Inheritance tax by opening their homes to the public once a year or more. It was stated that art did not attract tax [This is incorrect. Works of art are subject to capital gains tax when sold subject to current rules and exemptions. So if you are thinking of selling your Rembrandt, be careful].

    One of the things not mentioned in the debate about tax is the moral question. It is frequently said that the rich would leave if taxes were too high. Taxes paid for the things we need in our society. It was pointed out (from the perspective of a wealthy person) that they might say they do not need many of the services. They pay for their own medical treatment, they educated their children privately, they live in gated communities and do not need police protection and rarely use roads on the way to the airport to board a private jet or helicopter. Why should they pay tax certainly a higher rate? Why should they pay yet more to keep individuals who were too lazy to work? They might even use the word ‘feckless’.

    However, they lived in a society which is getting ever more unequal. Placing the burden of higher taxes on the poorest in society risks bringing the whole system down. A recent BBC programme on inheritance had noted that inequality was embedded in the system. As some people got wealthier, they were able to pass on this wealth and its attendant advantages to their children thus further increasing inequality. Home ownership for many was but a dream but those who had access to the ‘bank of mum and dad’ ‘could achieve this. We should think more about what to do with our wealth it was suggested.

    There was some discussion on loopholes which is where we came in. The role of the so-called ‘treasure islands’ as discussed in Nicholas Shaxson’s book Treasure Islands: Tax havens and the Men Who Stole the World (Bodley Head, 2011) is key to the system of avoidance. He estimated around £12 trillion was stored in them (2011 figures). These havens were a relic of Empire.

    Part of the discussion about tax was based on the notion we were better off with lower taxes which is why politicians constantly promised that they, and their party, were dedicated to lowering them. Would any politician who said we needed to pay more tax if we want the services we expect ever get elected. Almost certainly not. As we have noted before, lower taxes will enable you to buy some more consumer goods or services but it will not buy you a road system, a health service, schools, defence and so on: all the things which gives us our society.

    Which led to the notion that we should be proud of paying tax and such individuals should be admired. Paying tax should be seen as a duty.

    It was noted that wealth also gave power. So we would not see changes in the tax havens for example because many of those who use them possess the power to stop change. On the subject of loopholes, Eton cropped up again and that it, along with other public schools, did not pay VAT or business rates until this year. They were regarded as charities going back to their foundations but were far from charities today.

    I suppose there is a theme linking both debates and that is our role as citizens. It is surely up to us to demand better service from our leaders, to take a closer look at those standing for election and to enquire about their ability to lead, manage or develop workable policies, to take a closer look at those policies and promises made and to be realistic about things like tax. We cannot have something for nothing. The focus should be on making sure that the tax system works as it should but how many people know of the tax gap or how much it is? Two interesting debates which raised several interesting questions.

    Peter Curbishley

    Next meeting on December 13th

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  • Democracy Café

    The next Café will be this morning Saturday, 8 November starting at 10:00 as usual in the Library. Lasting 2 hours with a break. If you haven’t been before, the idea is people bring a topic – ideally in the form of a short question – and we vote on which topic to discuss. Typically, we debate two. You can just come and take part – there is no compulsion to offer a topic.

    If you want to see examples of previous sessions just scroll down and see the write-ups. It’s free but there is a collection if you are able to spare any half groats that would be appreciated.

    There seems no shortage of things to talk about – the Royal family, the state of the economy – but you might find these too depressing so if you have any uplifting ideas they would be welcome.

  • October Democracy Café

    Probably the 100th Café to be held

    We think this meeting was the 100th Café to be held and is a testament to the format that it has survived several different venues and came through the Covid crisis unscathed. Sadly, numbers were down for this meeting – the lowest for some while – but that did not inhibit the discussion.

    We are grateful to Salisbury Library for allowing us to use their venue.

    The first topic of the morning was the vexed question of immigration which has filled the airwaves in one form or another for months now. It featured strongly in the recent party conferences. The question was Surveys show that immigration is of prime concern at the moment despite other matters being more important: discuss. The first comment was to expand on the topic to say that Reform is largely centred on immigration and kindred matters and the other parties are keen to jump on the band wagon. Matters such as the NHS, education and roads for example are more important but do not receive the same attention. Another said immigrants had become the whipping boy for problems in the country and the concern was the degree of traction it was getting. A general election tomorrow would probably see a Reform government elected.

    Who’s to blame for this? Was it the likes of Robert Jenrick or the Labour party? Or was it the failure of politicians to stand up for immigrants and to point out that the NHS simply could not function without them? Why are they so defensive?

    One spoke of his early life experience going to Wales because his father was a key worker in the nascent plastics industry. They were given houses in Barry (of Gavin and Stacey fame) which was much resented by the locals. Life was quite uncomfortable such that many wanted to return to England. It is easy to understand the resentment however with English ‘immigrants’ arriving and taking the newly built houses (actually prefabs).

    One spoke of her discomfort at the display of St George’s flags. They were looking after a property tenanted by Egyptian medics. The neighbour next door displayed one of these flags and there was some unpleasantness. It was quite provocative.

    It was similar in some respects to Brexit someone suggested: a simple solution to a complex problem. Why were there no ‘grown ups’ in the room spelling out the [real] problems? Was it a case of deflection? Another thought was that voters tend to vote against something not for: voters were given some ‘ugly’ but simple things to vote against it was claimed. If the economy was doing well, perhaps there would be no need to demonise immigrants? A recent Question Time programme was mentioned where the audience appeared to turn against Reform which was encouraging.

    Much of the public debate centred on ‘illegal’ immigration but it is not illegal to enter the country to seek refuge. It was more properly ‘irregular’ immigration. It was demonising and dehumanising. There was a comparison with the ’30s in Germany and the campaigns against the Jews who were alleged to be to blame for many of the country’s ills and the loss of the Great War.

    There was some discussion about the role of the rich in our society triggered by an assertion that Nigel Farage receives massive coverage despite his party only having a tiny number of MPs. Having a simple message was part of the answer it was suggested. He also defended the position of the rich which was popular with our newspaper owners. In this connection, the recent events concerning the PPE scandal and the award against Baroness Mone in the PPE scandal was discussed. None had gone to prison it was noted. Millions had been spent on the court case but the award was against the company, Medpro, which is now in receivership and whether any of the £122m award will ever be seen is questionable. By contrast, benefit cheats do go to prison.

    Were political parties frightened of the rich? Promises to do something rarely came to anything. The distraction idea surfaced again, with suggestions, along the lines of Juvenal’s bread and circuses, that governments were more interested in distracting the voters rather than tackling root problems. Where the fundamental beliefs that used to determine the parties someone asked? Sir Keir Starmer’s lack of charisma and vision was mentioned.

    One curiosity was mentioned and that was how people spoke disparagingly about immigrants and others not from these shores but if they were in the presence of such a person would say ‘I don’t mean you’. It was a kind of ‘othering’ and how the word was detached from individuals. So people were grateful for help and treatment in a hospital from a foreign medic, but would still sound off about immigrants as though they were some kind of different species. It was noted however, that assaults and racial abuse on medical staff had increased dramatically.

    There was discussion about the use of the St George’s flag and how they were visible all across Somerset someone claimed. Some of the complaints about immigrants were not just about housing and ‘taking our jobs’ but suggesting it was to protect our daughters and the risk of rape. Dangerous lies were being told. There is an interesting post on the local Amnesty site on the immigrant/refugee situation.

    If there were some themes to emerge one was the pusillanimity of our politicians who were seemingly too afraid to praise the contribution of immigrants to our country. Second was the success of simple arguments peddled to complex problems and thirdly, finding scapegoats for problems no matter how relevant they were. Which sort of linked to the second topic …

    The second half of our debate tackled the notion ‘Did it matter which political party was in charge?‘ This it was explained was based on the assertion that a range of outside forces meant the room for manoeuvre by governments was extremely small.

    Parties keep a close eye on the polls and spend time with focus groups as they want to be re-elected. They have few principles that can survive this and the need to placate the media is another factor. There was also the question of representing the views of the electorate which politicians had to be mindful of. ‘It’s what my constituents want’ is a frequent cry from some politicians. They always claim to be ‘listening’. One anecdote was of a politician invited onto Desert Island Discs, who organised a focus group to give him advice on what records to choose [the politician was named]’. Tony Blair relied heavily of focus groups.

    We were reminded of the term ‘Butskellism’ which emerged in the ’50s and was a combination of two leading politicians Rab Butler (Conservative) and Hugh Gaitskell (Labour) because many key aspects of their policies were similar and centrist in nature. Both parties pursued broadly similar policies in fact.

    Politicians were in a difficult position it was noted. If they stuck to their principles they risked losing the whip and were of limited use to their constituents. Isabel Hardman in her book Why we get the wrong politicians (Atlantic Books, 2019) described the lonely and stressful world that some lived and how badly they were treated as backbenchers. It was suggested that this was less of a problem in Europe where they do not have whipping systems.

    Back to the question and the role of lobbying was mentioned. There was a considerable number of lobbyists in the Commons and they played a key role in shaping policy and representing the interests of their mostly, powerful backers. Many were centred on Tufton Street which has become infamous for their behind the scenes activities. They were sometimes referred to as ‘junk tanks’. Often their funding was opaque and they were funded by fossil fuel interests.

    There have always been lobbyists it was noted and they do sometimes have a purpose in introducing outside views and expertise into the political arena. There was discussion we have had before about the narrow nature and backgrounds of politicians in parliament. Public school, university, a think tank then into parliament. Many lacked real world experience. Shuffling between ministries was mentioned as discussed by Rory Stewart in his book Politics on the Edge: no sooner had a minister got to grips with a department, they were moved. The narrow pool from which ministers are chosen was also noted. Most were MPs (the occasional person from the Lords) and if you were appointing the boss of a major corporation, there is no way such a method would be used.

    There were comparisons with other countries where often circular arrangements were employed in their debating chambers to avoid the confrontational approach. In Belgium, ministers resigned their seats once appointed. It was noted that we seemed unable to learn from other countries. The UK system was not fit for purpose it was suggested, designed for managing the Empire not for the present day.

    But do we, the electors, have some responsibility? We demand low taxes in the belief we are better off the lower they are. The current government was in a bind having won power partly because of its low tax promises. We want the services, the NHS to be fixed and pot holes to be filled etc. but we do not want to pay higher taxes for them. Or rather, we want others to pay more but not us. It was noted that money spent on defence might be better used elsewhere.

    Two interesting debates, linked in some ways around responsible government, politicians to show more courage and to be honest and how increasingly, simple solutions and scapegoats employed to tackle complex problems.

    The next meeting, number 101, is on November 8th.

    Peter Curbishley

  • Democracy Café

    The next meeting of the café takes place this morning, Saturday, 11 October, starting at 10 am in Salisbury Library. It finishes at noon. All are welcome and write-ups of previous cafés can be found on this site and on the list of previous posts at the bottom of this post. It is free to attend but a small contribution of a few groats would be appreciated.

    You can come with a topic for discussion or just come and join in – it’s up to you. If you do have a topic, try and express it as a question or in a few sentences. We vote on the suggestions and usually the top 2 get debated.

    Lots to talk about so see you there.

    PC

  • September Democracy Café

    Smaller group than usual but two fascinating topics

    At the end of this post you will be invited to think about the future development of the Café

    September 2025

    The Café took place a day or so after the murder of Charlie Kirk in Utah, USA. This has produced a huge degree of anger in that country and cries of vengeance. An element of this is the role of Christian Nationalism and this led to our first debate: Christian Nationalism, is it a threat to democracy? These ideas and beliefs seem to permeate many levels of American society and are influential certainly with young people. It combined God with government and together were a powerful force. It was disturbing they were able to persuade so many people.

    It was important to remember on the other hand that Christian values – whether you were a follower of the religion or not – had brought a lot to our world. Whether the sort of evangelism so common in the US could come to the UK was questionable. However, it was pointed out that one of the local MPs, Danny Kruger, had received substantial funding from Christian evangelicals which he failed to declare in time. [Kruger defected to the Reform party a few days after the Café took place]. An issue however was the selective interpretation of Bible teachings.

    People were looking for certainty someone suggested and the Evangelicals relied on Hebrew texts not the Gospel. Christian nationalism goes back a long way in the States it was noted despite the Constitution saying that Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion (First Amendment). The connection between church and state is a feature of the UK however and Tony Blair was mentioned briefly although he was famous for saying ‘we don’t do God’. Governments often talks positively about religion when it suits them, but then criticises them as being ‘political’ if they say something they don’t like. A separation of church and state was unlikely to happen in the UK it was thought.

    The Alpha Course was mentioned. This is an American evangelical course which is now established in the UK. There are some criticisms of its approach. It was claimed that the course misunderstands what aspects of Christianity is about [and several references on the internet seem to bear that out].

    There was then a bold statement that religion was ‘a form of manipulation of the masses’. There was considerable hypocrisy and my post [Facebook] about the enormous wealth of the Cathedral was noted and its failure to share that wealth locally. There was a fear of living a life which was bleak and pointless. This led to a discussion about whether abortion – and the various religious approaches to this difficult subject – was ‘political’ or not. All these subjects were political it was argued and there was tendency for all religions (Christianity and Islam were both instanced) to use texts for their own purposes: an echo of the comment above and Hebrew texts. Someone said that religion was about ‘we know the answer – it’s in the Bible’. That is, giving specific answers to a range of moral issues.

    This was developed by the suggestion that religion was transactional. For example, people feared death and it gave them the promise of immortality. It was suggested that religion was based on ‘getting something back’ (I assume for believers) if you follow their precepts.

    Someone spoke of their brother who had been an alcoholic but stopped and subsequently became a fundamentalist. Addiction seemed to be the point being made here. The Ten Commandments were mentioned at this point but then the fact that the Church ‘got rid of’ women [from the priesthood]. Were not some of the Apostles women? There was an anti-woman movement in the US. The late and hugely influential Charlie Kirk was quoted who said ‘black women don’t have brain power’, ‘Democrat women want to die alone without children’ and the much quoted remark that ‘Taylor Swift should submit to her husband’.

    The role of fundamentalist Christians funding settlements (mostly illegal) in Israel was mentioned. ‘It’s in the Bible’ they claim and if you attempt to argue with this you are deemed ‘anti-Semitic’ or just plain evil. Their fundamentalism meant there was no way to argue with them,.

    ‘Jesus gives my life a point’ and also meaning and a purpose someone said. She suggested that they should not leave their minds at the door to the church. She mentioned a service where people were free to say what they thought about Palestine Action. It was suggested that people should have a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other.

    ‘In the beginning was the word’ – was it? it was asked. The ‘creation myth’ is still believed it was noted [and still taught in some schools]. There was disagreement about the constancy of religious belief. Some argued that beliefs went back thousands of years, others argued that it was constantly evolving. Another issue was the meaning of words which have changed enormously over the ages. Translation was an issue as well and we were reminded of the bitter arguments surrounding the translation of the Bible into English.

    So did we answer the question put? Probably not although we did on the whole conclude that extreme positions on religion were unwelcome. Some fundamentalist positions meant argument was impossible: they had the truth. This was clearly the opposite to a democratic approach.

    The second half we switched to discussing the question With otherwise brilliant people, should we accept their warts [and all]? This was a reference to Peter Mandelson who had been sacked the previous day as Ambassador to the US following further revelations in the Sun concerning his relations with the disgraced Jeffrey Epstein. We seemed to be obsessed with undermining our leaders the presenter suggested. Mandelson was praised by many for doing his job well but clearly his relations with Epstein were more intense than apparently the prime minister was aware of at the time of his appointment.

    One aspect was that it was not a level playing field it was suggested. All week, the Guardian has been writing about the scandalous activities of Boris Johnson who used his position to secure millions yet this has not been mentioned on the BBC, Channel 4 or the Daily Telegraph. There seemed to be two standards where someone like Angela Rayner was intensely scrutinised whereas people like Boris Johnson seemed not to be despite the huge sums involved. We have a broadly right wing press keen to hound anyone it was said.

    Could there not be a system of apologies where people’s past indiscretions could be accounted for? The central question was ‘does this make you incompetent anyway?’ It was a problem for women especially. Men can have multiple affairs but for a woman, there was still a degree of shame attached to any activity of this kind. Will people stand for office or to become an MP etc if their past lives are crawled over? A female minister for X had a child out of wedlock – and? But for the tabloids it was fodder for a takedown and acres of prurient comment.

    At what point however can you wipe the slate clean and move on? A difficult question. Some may remember the Profumo scandal (seems tame by today’s standards) and the eponymous minister resigned and spent his remaining years working for a charity in the East End of London. There were personality types who don’t ever see they’ve done anything wrong – perhaps Johnson was an example of this. Apologies and clean slates were irrelevant in these cases as they will always carry on in the same shameless way. Unfortunately someone noted, they are attracted to power.

    Mandelson had been ‘unbelievably crass’ however. This was his third comeback and he did seem to be drawn moth like, to the rich and famous. Clearly, his charm had taken him far. Had in fact has he done anything wrong? Surely, it was suggested, he had stayed loyal to a friend. That is regarded by many as a positive quality. The question however centred around the gravity of Epstein’s offences it was argued. It was about powerful men abusing their positions and about child abuse.

    Mandelson was a protégé of Morgan McSweeney it was claimed schooled in the ideology of ‘the ends justify the means’. It was pointed out though that the Labour party did have an ethics adviser which the Conservatives did not for some while. The Nolan Principles were mentioned number 1 of which is ‘selflessness’ and No. 2 ‘integrity’. Hard to square with some recent behaviours.

    Back to the question and Fred Goodwin was mentioned as someone good at his job who had to step down after the near collapse of RBS. This was not really a relevant example because the rise and fall of Goodwin concerned his management and reckless expansion which led to disaster. He was not brought down by some kind of personal scandal. He was ultimately found not to be good at his job. [Famously, Goodwin hated mess, so filing cabinets had to have sloping tops to stop staff putting stuff on them].

    Richard Wagner was mentioned as a noted anti-Semite but is regarded as a major composer and still performed around the world. Picasso and his treatment of women was also instanced. However, they were not politicians so did not have direct effects on our lives.

    We ended by the observation that we needed a spectrum of people to run our affairs and we do not elect saints. As if to link with the first debate someone observed ‘let him without sin throw the first stone’ [John 8:7].

    Our thanks again to the Library for allowing us to use their space

    Peter Curbishley

    Future of Democracy Café

    We have been running the cafes for some time now and early in 2026 we will have our hundredth session. They are well attended and we regularly see over 20 come each month. We have had a very wide range of topics to debate and ideas for new ones never seem to be lacking.

    Following this success, the committee is wondering if we can extend the idea in any way? We do not want to change the DC itself under the principle of ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it’ but whether some similar idea could not be tried. There seems to be a thirst for political debate and it is very evident from our sessions that people are unhappy with the local political process, the local media landscape and the media generally, and are worried about democracy itself.

    Do you have any ideas? Please use the comments section or on Facebook where this post will be linked or contact us individually – whichever suits.

    Meanwhile, have you thought of joining us. We have a small committee and additional members would be welcome. Are you a subscriber?

  • August Democracy Café

    The Café tackled two contentious topics

    A colleague came into my office years ago and after a long discussion about a project not going well said “we must grab the nettle by the horns”. Well the first nettle we grasped at this Café was the vexed one of terrorism and we debated the question ‘Is terrorism ever justified?’ With the war in Gaza still raging and Hamas (a proscribed terrorist organisation) still in existence, if weakened, it is clearly a debate of some moment. What is a terrorist? The Oxford dictionary says: ‘a person who uses or favours violent and intimidating methods for coercing a government or community.’ There is nothing benign in this definition and the idea that it can be used as a means of persuasion was clearly not in the mind of the lexicographer.

    It was suggested the word emerged during the Iraq war (which is not in fact the case – it seems to date to the French Revolution and the period called ‘The Terror’). The distinction between violence against individuals in contrast to violence against a state was one of the first points made. It was important to distinguish between them it was said.

    The word is more nuanced it was noted. Echoing the last point, there was a distinction between violence against property and and violence against people. This is a matter of some significance concerning the banning of Palestine Action following its latest action of spraying paint over RAF aircraft at Brize Norton. (This very weekend, over 500 were arrested for allegedly supporting PA at a rally in London). It was interesting that Just Stop Oil were heavily policed but never proscribed despite similar tactics used by PA. The contrast with the farmers was noted who blocked many streets in and around London as part of their protests. There is no record of a single farmer being arrested.

    The suffragettes were mentioned who used violent and aggressive means to force the government to accept female enfranchisement. It followed many decades of peaceful protests by the suffragists which were largely unsuccessful. The word suffragette was coined by the Daily Mail as a term of disparagement. Misogyny has a long history in that paper clearly.

    Historically, the words ‘Freedom Fighter’ was often used for such activities but in recent times, terrorist seems to have taken over.

    The frightening effect of protests by supporters of Palestine on Jewish communities was claimed.

    The lack of democratic credentials was pointed out. It is perhaps difficult to see how a democratic process could be organised to support a terrorist organisation however. Neither the UVF or the IRA had any kind of formal democratic process in their formation. Later in the discussion it was said that terrorism exists when/where democracy has failed. This observation cropped up several times.

    The debate shifted a gear by asking can a state be a terrorist organisation with its own activities against its own citizens? Russia was mentioned. President Bush called a range of states an ‘Axis of Evil’ (Iraq, Iran and North Korea) for supporting terrorist activity beyond its boundaries. Governments can introduce laws which aren’t democratic. A state can demonise a cause they don’t like by calling it ‘terrorist’ a technique now widely applied around the world. In any event, who gets to decide on these definitions?

    We were reminded of the activities of the US in South America where nation after nation was threatened and its leaders murdered or overthrown if there was any sign of them becoming socialist or communist. In Chile, the murder of president Allende and his replacement by General Pinochet was given as an example of the role of the CIA.

    Do our definitions change if there is a war? During the Second World War, the French mounted a ‘resistance’ against the Germans. Would we call their activities terrorism? We didn’t because we approved of their resistance and the SOE supported them with their activities. Following the invasion of Afghanistan by the then Soviet Union, the US supported the mujahidin. Subsequently, with the occupation by the US they were fighting the same people whom they had armed and trained. Who or what is a terrorist seems to shift according to whether we approve of them or not.

    It was suggested that any country which has a secret service is by definition a terrorist state. An interesting proposition. Perhaps a country which invades another can similarly be described. This led to a discussion of ‘justified’ and how that could be defined and also ‘proportionality’. This latter being discussed in relation to Israel’s actions in Gaza. A key issue someone thought was when violence was used against civilians, the problem of Russian’s bombing Ukraine an example. Nelson Mandela was mentioned who was involved in the bombing of unmanned government buildings and was declared a ‘terrorist’ by President Reagan. One man’s terrorist …

    We were reminded that the UN allows the use of force against an invading nation.

    The discussion moved on to whether we should negotiate with terrorists. Northern Ireland was mentioned and the covert negotiations with the IRA. An interesting point was made: if there was some ‘right’ in the terrorist’s position then perhaps negotiations might be justifiable. There was an obvious danger of course, namely if anyone with a cause imagines that violence is a passport for negotiations then the results can only be imagined. Was there some kind of ‘sliding scale’ of justification for political violence? it was asked. At this point the book How to Blow up a Pipeline was mentioned which argued for aggressive approaches to climate change. Hamas was mentioned and it was claimed that they seek the extinction of Israel and are called terrorists. Israel seeks the destruction of Hamas and Palestine but are not called terrorists. [The BBC says Hamas is opposed to the existence of Israel which may or may not mean the same thing].

    We struggled with the word ‘justified’. Can the killing of civilians ever be justified? In Gaza it is the disproportionate nature and scale of the IDF attacks which many are concerned about.

    Definition came up several times. When a group is defined as a ‘terrorist’ organisation then governments stop negotiating with them. Understanding the underlying causes also disappears from view.

    Finally, this week was the 80th anniversary of the dropping of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima. Was that an act of terror by one nation on another? We did not explore that unfortunately …

    A difficult topic suffused as it is with meanings, politics and perspectives but an interesting discussion nevertheless and one worth exploring.

    The next topic was almost as controversial as the first namely, should the City Hall invite Katie Hopkins (pictured) to a gig at the hall? It appeared that some in the audience had not heard of her which is a kind of comment in itself. She came to fame on the BBC’s Apprentice programme and has since carved out a career for herself as a media person with a range of outspoken views. She deplores fat people and seems to have particular animus for women who stay at home after having a baby (having looked up a range of her quotes I discovered). The argument was essentially about the cancel culture which has gripped the universities. Some of her gigs have been cancelled it was claimed largely on public order grounds apparently.

    Did the booking and the purchase of tickets mean her views were endorsed by the hall and the

    audience? Some of the arguments hinged on KH being classed as right wing. It was a pity that more did not know of her comments because although they are, some might argue objectionable, few seem to be particularly right wing. The view that she was led to a question about whether a left wing comedian (Stewart Lee was mentioned) should be cancelled?

    It was argued that the City Hall was simply doing it for commercial reasons. One article was mentioned which caused much anger and many complaints was in the Sun where she referred to migrants as cockroaches. Objecting to her presence could be argued on acceptability grounds. It was divisive and these comments go against the values of our society. It was strongly felt by some that the City Hall should not be making money by inviting people whose act was built on causing offence.

    The counter argument was should we be concerned at offending people. Shami Chakrabarti has claimed that in the interests of free speech, we do not have a right not to be offended. Stand-up is sometimes outrageous, so where do you draw the line? The popular and award winning series on the BBC The Hour has been pulled and back issues are no longer available. It appears because it had low ratings rather than for any political or acceptability reasons (why back issues are not available is a puzzle though).

    In connection with a Tommy Robinson video, said to be professional, persuasive and manipulative, it was suggested that the educational system needs to catch up. There was a need for critical awareness to be introduced into Civics classes to help students grasp meanings and impacts. The Super Searchers Programme has been launched to enhance information literacy. However, it is run by Google – draw your own conclusions. An article in this month’s Byline Times discussed the topic of information with the familiar misinformation and disinformation, which we have discussed in several cafés, but added a third, malinformation which is using correct information for malign purposes.

    A point was made concerning humour and its use to mask prejudice. An article by George Monbiot in he Guardian discussed this aspect of humour by individuals like Rod Liddle who has a column in the Spectator. The article suggests that humour can be used as a form of ‘plausible deniability’ and as a cover for outrageous views such as getting rid of disabled people by starving them to death. Rod Liddle suggested bombing Glastonbury for some reason. Monbiot makes the point about Right v. Left: if a humourist suggested bombing the Conservative party conference there would be outrage. Suggestions of bombing Glasto are, well, humour. Can’t you take a joke?

    It was noted however that Bernard Manning made a career out of being outrageous and was hugely popular.

    An interesting idea was put forward about comedy: it is acceptable punching upwards at the powerful, less so punching ‘down’ to the powerless. Where that puts Bernard Manning’s many jokes about mother-in-laws is for you to decide.

    This was an example where debate could not settle a basic difference of view. For those who dislike unpleasant or divisive views being aired – whether or not wrapped up in humour – the likes of Katie Hopkins should not be promoted certainly not for profit. For others, however unpleasant, such people should be heard because the risk to free speech is a higher cause and one where we just have to put up with unpleasantness in its cause.

    Peter Curbishley

    The next meeting is on Saturday 13th September starting at 10:00 for 2 hours. We are grateful for the Library allowing us to use their space.

  • Progress with People’s Assemblies

    First to say, there is progress. Enthusiasm doesn’t always turn into action and although there is a long way to go, things are moving. Readers will recall we gave a presentation to Councillors at an Area Board on 3 July which was for the most part, favourably received. A change in the political composition of the council has helped and is more receptive to the idea of listening to people’s concerns and ideas. There was a feeling previously of ‘you voted us in, now go away.’

    If you are new to this site, we held three assemblies over the spring and summer at which over 100 people attended giving up 2 hours of their time to discussing what they felt was important to the future of Salisbury. They voted for 5 ideas which we presented at the Area Board. A team of 3 went up to the national event called the House of the People to present the results with around 100 others. There is an excellent review in the Byline Times which gives a flavour of the event. Parenthetically, I can recommend this publication which comes out once a month and gives an interesting take on current political issues. It can be deeply critical of some of the media coverage we are served up. They have been extremely critical of the BBC’s coverage of the Gaza war for example.

    People’s Charter created

    The Charter has set out the following five things:

    • Tax wealth by: removing tax loopholes and closing tax havens; ending pension tax subsidies for high-earners; charging the equivalent of National Insurance on investment as income over £5,000 a year; and applying VAT to banking services.
    • Strengthen and enforce anti-corruption laws; prohibit lobbying, gifting and second jobs in politics.
    • A Future Generation Act – Implement a first principle act that ensures all government policy prioritises well-being, sustainability, and nature over GDP for all current and future generations.
    • Immediate total embargo on arms, trade and support for all countries that are in violation of international law, with immediate priority to be given to Israel.
    • Long term decommodification of housing, ensuring renters rights; councils repurchasing disused housing/empty homes/holiday homes to repurpose and build green council housing; enshrining structural laws without loopholes; and implementing rent increase caps.

    Housing was one of the issues which the Salisbury discussions focused on with matters such as planning and affordable homes. Developers fulfilling their planning obligations was discussed (where developers promise x numbers of affordable homes then discover when they get on site that it cannot be afforded because of unforeseen difficulties).

    Local meeting

    Committee members and others met last evening to review progress with those who we hope will lead on some of the projects. To remind you these were:

    1. Housing and issues around quality and affordability
    2. Traffic and transport
    3. A Community Hub
    4. An Environment Centre
    5. A college for the performing arts

    We discussed the performing arts suggestion and one idea proposed was a ‘City of Story Telling’. This would build on the Stage 65 idea and hopefully create a centre of excellence for story telling with an emphasis on encouraging young people. It could tie in with Salisbury’s Cultural Strategy. It did seem to be promising and could link to the Cathedral whose theme next year is ‘Joyful Noise’. It did sound promising but it did not fully address the idea of a college for the performing arts though that might follow in future years. It will take a lot of organisation, a need for fund raising and some good marketing. The government is keen on the notion of oracy at present so the idea should be propitious.

    We then moved on to discuss transport and this is a tangled web if ever there was one. If the road to hell is paved with Wiltshire Council transport reports and plans then there can only be a few yards left before meeting Beelzebub himself. The discussion focused around the idea of 15 minute communities. There is the Wiltshire Council LTP4 plans which, if you have mastered War and Peace, you may be equipped to tackle being 310 pages of plans, 604 pages of assessments and a 15 page plan. The problem it was said was that there was little sign of action. This may change with the new LibDem administration. It was noted that there is £6m of unspent s106 monies which could provide funding for any workable ideas.

    There was discussion of People Friendly Streets which seems to be relevant. It was noted that the issue of transport and related matters was an ideal one for a Citizen’s Assembly or similar exercise. Another matter was Park and Ride which is operating sub-optimally.

    We briefly discussed the Community Hub ideas but the person concerned was not able to make the meeting. It was noted that a hub existed in the central car park in Warminster. We got on to talk about 3G pitches which are lacking in Salisbury. There are prospects however and at least 2 possible locations. The new owner of the football club may be a key influence.

    We finished by briefly discussing citizenship and government plans to reduce the voting age to 16. There will be a need and an opportunity for more schools work to interest pupils in the political process.

    So that’s where we are at present. We did also briefly touch on making SDA a bit more ‘formal’. We are currently an ‘unincorporated association’ by default. We could change to become a Community Interest Company but there are few advantages. It would be advisable to agree a set of rules and procedures and these will be discussed over the coming months.

    Finally, finally – have you thought of joining us? We can do with all the support we can muster especially now things are beginning to happen.

    Peter Curbishley

    The next Democracy Café is on Saturday 9th August at 10:00 in the Library.

  • Area Board meeting: the follow up

    Group met after the Area Board to discuss future actions

    Last week, we presented the results of the three People’s Assemblies we held over the summer and the response was on the whole, positive. We seem to have the prospect of actual progress now and the group met to discuss next steps.

    The results from our Assemblies will be part of the national response which will be taking place on 20 – 22 of this month in London. Three people will be present from Salisbury.

    We discussed what to do next and the major exercise is the support we can offer to the ‘champions’ whom we hope will lead on the five top wishes coming out of the Assemblies. One idea was to try and ‘match’ a councillor to a champion to try and make sure the ideas don’t get forgotten or sidelined.

    One of the first things we will be doing is organising a meeting of all the champions to plan the next stages and to discuss what offers of help and support they might need. It was emphasised in the meeting that ours is a supporting role but maybe also guiding in some cases.

    We also discussed our own future and the need to consider a more formal structure for SDA: at present we have none. We may opt for a Company Limited by Guarantee or a Community Interest Company and this will be looked into. It will help with the ‘credibility’ issue. We need to be clear about our objectives.

    We looked in general terms about trying to involve others including going into schools if at all possible.

    The idea of a fresh assembly was discussed and it was decided to leave it until the Spring largely because of the amount of time and effort needed to make them a success. One suggestion was for a junior assembly – we’ll see.

    Next meeting is on 15th July at the Ox Row Inn starting at 6:15.

    If you are not a member or supporter of SDA, have you thought of joining us? Best thing is to make yourself know at the Democracy Café the next one this is this Saturday 12th in the Library starting at 10:00. Or put a message below. You’d be welcome.

  • SDA comes of age

    SDA makes successful presentation to Area Board

    The Alliance was able to report to the Salisbury Area Board on 3 July following the three successful People’s Assemblies we ran in the City. The response was on the whole positive and we did feel that we have made some progress in our quest to improve the manner in which decisions are made in the local political sphere.  We are grateful to Karen Linaker for her help in arranging for our presentation.

    Mark Potts presented the results of the three assemblies noting that around a 100 people attended at least one of the meetings and some all three.  It demonstrated a keen interest by people who were concerned and interested in the future of the City and wanted to be involved in what happened.

    There were two main types of consultation: DAD and EDD he said.  They stood for Decide – Announce – Defend and, Engage – Deliberate – Decide.  Unfortunately, there had been a tendency towards the former where people felt proposals had all been decided and their involvement was just a formality. The Alliance was naturally enough, keener on the second approach.

    The top five

    After the three meetings the top five issues emerged.  They were:

    1. Housing and issues around quality and affordability
    2. Traffic and transport
    3. A Community Hub
    4. An Environment Centre
    5. A college for the performing arts

    A full description of these and a brief report of the final assembly, can be found on this link.

    Mark said that present in the room, were the five ‘champions’ for each of these ideas and he suggested the next step is some kind of engagement with councillors and others. He mentioned the idea of citizen’s juries, another idea being promoted by SDA, which has been successfully used to tackle more complex problems.  It was true they cost money but the cost of getting these things wrong needs also to be considered.  They have the advantage of engaging experts into the debate and engaging a cross section of citizens in the process.

    Responses

    In response to Mark’s presentation, councillors had some questions and comments.

    Cllr Sven Hocking asked how will those who took part in this event or SDA help councillors find the budget.  Mark replied that it was not the role of SDA to try and manage the council’s budget.  We were only seeking to submit ideas.

    Cllr Ricky Rogers said on the housing issue, it was government who decide.  Developers were in a strong position he said.  This was a matter which came up in our debates and is a fair point. 

    Cllr Ed Rimmer was more sceptical.  He thought it better for people to engage in the existing system.  He questioned whether the [five priorities] reflected the wishes of the wider community. Is there not a risk that what is proposed subverts the [electoral] system we have?  After all, the councillors here have been voted in to represent people. How can SDA demonstrate political balance?

    In replying Mark said we were not suggesting our method was better. He stressed people had given up their time.  The point was our method was deliberative.

    Cllr John Wells said he had attended one of the sessions. He suggested some of the ideas should be built into the things they are engaged in already.

    There followed a general debate in which it was stressed that the process was about helping the councillors do their job.  It was agreed that better engagement was wanted and was a good idea.

    Cllr Paul Sample (Chair) said the work was opportune.  There was a review of the Area Boards underway and he welcomed the ideas and energy put in.  “Keep doing what you’re doing – it’s not wasted!” 

    Comment

    After the work put into organising and running the three assemblies, we were encouraged with the overall response we received. There does seem to be a change of attitude among the majority of councillors that admits they do need input from organised events of this kind.

    It is true that councillors (and members of parliament) are voted in to run things but the question is how many of the public would have read their manifestos before doing so?  How do you accommodate changing circumstances?  Are people only to have a say every 4 or five years?  As new problems or opportunities arise is it not best to tap into any local expertise?

    The three sessions demonstrated the degree of enthusiasm and commitment local people had. The point surely was to bottle some of this enthusiasm and use it to change or improve things. Trust in politics is at a very low ebb. People feel ignored and left out. This kind of deliberative approach would surely put a small dent in that thinking.

    The future

    We shall be meeting soon to consider next steps and there will be a post here so subscribe if you want to remain in touch. Why not join us? We need more people who want to play a role in local affairs. As we have debated in several of our Democracy Café meetings (next one on Saturday July 12th, 10:00 in the Library finishing at noon), the role of parties in the local political scene is doubted by many and is seen as an irrelevance. We are not a political party and our aim is to improve how things are run.

    Peter Curbishley

  • Democracy Café: June

    June 2025

    A smaller group than usual assembled at the Library for this month’s Café, but the discussion was still diverse and considered. The first topic chosen was “What are the costs and benefits of AI?”

    One member noted that he had written an article back in 2016 on the subject and, rereading it, had found it surprisingly relevant. A review of the piece had some good recommendations.  Most members were of the view that AI had great benefits in terms of saving time on processing but were concerned about regulation.  A dissenting member observed that it was too late for such concerns, as AI had developed way beyond the ability of humans to control it – into the level of “general intelligence”.

    Apocalyptic visions aside, the debate was generally about the possible effects of using the power of AI to increase productivity but remove jobs.  Some found ChatGPT useful, particularly for scientific research; but mistakes can occur, and there were concerns about whether AI could overcome this.

    At a more philosophical level, it was felt that AI would remove free will, or at least lead a trend away from individualism.  The implications for art were considered.

    On regulation, it was questioned whether AI could regulate itself; the more advanced view was that AI would be concerned with its own survival and would evade regulatory interference.  This led on to a discussion of machine consciousness and thus human consciousness and how far we understand either.   Complex questions, but a stimulating debate.

    The second topic for discussion was “Should we increase defence spending to 3% of the total?”

    The consensus was that more spending on weaponry was pointless but the defence of the realm was still important.  The reason for the proposed increase was questioned, particularly the demand from the US that Europe as a whole should take on more of the burden.  Some agreed that we have had defence on the cheap.  There was also some debate about the UK’s role, bearing in mind that we have not always been able to demonstrate that we are a major power nor have much influence in the major conflicts. Our role as a seller of arms was also questioned.  It was generally felt that the Strategic Defence Review was not a useful contribution to the debate.

    Andrew Hemming

    NEWS

    For those of you who came to one or more of the People’s Assemblies, we are pleased to report that we will be able to present the results at a meeting of an Area Board early in July. This could be a big step forward for the SDA.

    Have you thought about joining us? We are working to bring a better way of doing politics in the area and we need supporters. It is free.